Childhood Vaccinations

[selenite0]

Reason had an article on childhood vaccinations. Here's my comment on it:

We've contemplated the delayed/reduced schedule for our kids, but haven't been able to find a doctor willing to administer it. Now we can't get them seen by a pediatrician at all. Apparently letting a kid leave the office w/o vaccinations looks bad in malpractice suits, so they just refuse to keep non-vaccinated kids as regular patients. Fortunately GPs don't have that problem.

My take after many years of raising an autistic kid and researching the issue:

1. Nobody has a clue what does or does not cause autism.
2. Medical researchers get published with data sets so small relative to the frequency of occurrence that other fields would laugh them out of peer review.
3. 24 vaccinations in 18 months is way past the point of diminishing returns for infants who haven't finished developing their immune systems.
4. The official doctrine in favor of 100% vaccination has prevented research on how many shots are too many (either total or in a single session) or on warning signs that indicate a predisposition to bad reactions (such as a family history of autoimmune disorders).
5. Most of the improvement in childhood health came from clean water and good sewers, not vaccinations.

Right now we're conducting a huge experiment in how many vaccinations kids can get before we overwhelm their immune systems. Mine are in the control group.

Comments

[phanatic.livejournal.com]

we overwhelm their immune systems.

That's pretty unsupported as a possibility.

[selenite.livejournal.com]

A vaccination is rough on the recipient. A flu shot will ruin me for a day. It's logical that increasing the dosage will have a worse effect. So there's your theoretical justification.

Parents who've lost kids to vaccinations complained that the doctor had given multiple shots to "catch up" a kid who was overdue for more than one shot. There's an anecdotal justification.

And since no one collects data on how injuries relate to the number of shots . . . and there aren't any trials to compare how kids getting n shots in infancy compare to ones getting 2n . . . there it ends.

Until enough people worry about it that some real research gets done.

[archangelbeth]

I know that for two of the minx's shots, she threw up exactly 25 hours later. (The first time, she was pre-term, and choked on it -- and we spent the night in the hospital, because it looked like a seizure.)

Aside from that, she's been okay.

I think they should have given her the shots according to her "term" schedule, not her two-months-early birth schedule.

[selenite.livejournal.com]

I shudder at the thought of vaccinating a preemie. She's not supposed to be exposed to anything at that age. I'm glad she got through all right.

[phanatic.livejournal.com]

She's not supposed to be exposed to anything at that age.

Bwuh?

She's exposed to all sorts of antibodies from her mother. Or at least, normally.

[selenite.livejournal.com]

Let me rephrase. At that age she should only be exposed to what she gets directly from her mother.

[archangelbeth]

Moooooooo.

(Pregnancy, BLEAH. Childbirth... hello, quasi-emergency c-section. Pumping and nursing? Mooooooooooooo. That part worked out fine.)

Yeah, I wasn't any too keen on her getting vaccinated that early, but it was all the policy and the problem didn't show up till 25 hours after the vaccination.

And even then it could have been a fluke, except when she got Part II of that set of vaccinations, she yarped the exact same 25 hours later.

I suppose it could still be a fluke. BUT. O:p

[phanatic.livejournal.com]

A flu shot will ruin me for a day.

The singular form of 'data' is not 'anecdote.' Don't you find it a bit troublesome that, below, you excoriate well-controlled studies that indicate there's no link between MMR and autism because you personally feel their sample size is insufficient, and yet you conclude it's possible for vaccines to "overwhelm their immune systems" based on your own personal sample size of one? Here, I'll contradict it, I got a tetanus vaccine a few years ago and experienced nothing more than some localized soreness.

I don't dispute that, at absurd levels of vaccination, bad effects could occur. I mean, if instead of that one tetanus shot, I'd received one in every square centimeter of my skin, I'm sure I'd have been hurting. Or, you could simply inject enough carrier fluid to upset the body's isotonicity and kill the patient by swelling his brain as it absorbs the excess water. But neither of those things constitutes "overwhelming the immune system," and I don't think you have any evidence whatsoever that this actually occurs.

Parents who've lost kids to vaccinations complained that the doctor had given multiple shots to "catch up" a kid who was overdue for more than one shot. There's an anecdotal justification.

No, there's a logical fallacy called post hoc ergo propter hoc.

[selenite.livejournal.com]

The singular form of 'data' is not 'anecdote.'

Agreed. But if no one's collecting data you have to make decisions in it's absence.

As for tetanus, that's the same reaction I had.

I don't dispute that, at absurd levels of vaccination, bad effects could occur.

So, what data do you have that 24 shots in the 18 months after birth is not an absurd level? I've looked. I haven't found any.

Feel free to schedule all the shots you like for your kids. If you want to research the issue some more, this book has a lot of data on the issue. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0446677078/ref=ord_cart_shr/104-6473006-9680737?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance&n=283155)

[selenite.livejournal.com]

Argh. The possessive of "it" is "its." I hate that typo.

*wists* for ability to edit my comments.

[carbonelle.livejournal.com]

***wists*** in spades.

[joyeuse13.livejournal.com]

You may find this relevant and interesting.

[selenite.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't think there's any proof connecting thimerosal or MMR specifically to autism. But most of the "disproving" studies are total shit as well. "To see why autism has gone from an incidence of one in 2000 to one in 250, we studied a group of 36 children." Feh.

My gut feeling is it's the total number of shots, or the rate at which shots are given, which cause problems. In any case people are going to vary in how susceptible they are.

Ideally we'd quantify the hazards, look for markers for who's most vulnerable, and designate them to not be vaccinated. Instead we've got 100%-coverage-or-you-can't-go-to-school combined with just-one-more-shot-can't-hurt.

And the only way to find out if it's doing more harm than good is to have a control group for the experiment.

[joyeuse13.livejournal.com]

Well, regardless of any potential autism link, I can't help thinking it's got to be godawful traumatic to get a zillion shots all at once--I get panic attacks as it is, I can only imagine if I were 2 months old! Surely a slower rate of admission isn't such a horribly radical idea.

[artcat81.livejournal.com]

I can speak as someone who was very nearly killed by a vaccine. As a historical background, I want yall to know my parents fought to minimize the number of vaccines I took and also held off getting them until entry into school forced the issue

After having my measles vaccine, within 24 hours I developed a sustained fever of 105, my body was rigid, my eyes glazed and I was hallucinating. For those thinking this was merely coincidence my body also developed a handful of measles like red spots. very nearly killed me, this severe reaction was confirmed by doctors.
got written letters confirming I have severe reactions to the measles vaccine including doctors orders not to take the booster shot.


flashforward to my senior year of high school, they decided the letter was not good enough and that I had to have teh vaccine. Doctors and school districts were insisting i expose myself to something that very nearly killed me the last time. Mom and dad (both with medical training) were smart enough to demand a sero-immune blood test, what that meant was that if the test showed I had developed an immunity to the measles due to my severe reaction then I would not longer have to take it, if it came back showing a lack of immunity I would have to take the same vaccine that nearly killed me.

I am very lucky, it came back that I had an immunity to the measles.

one of my 3 brothers shares a similar reaction , and he is having to face the same thing.

My dad works in the medical field and its scary just how many vaccines out there he is unsure of because of its test record.

Call me biased but I am very anti flu shots, as quickly as that virus mutates and as many variations as there are, to me its a silly shot that encourages superviruses.

[selenite.livejournal.com]

Ack. That's a very scary story. I'm glad you came out okay.

This is also another reason we're considering home-schooling our kids. School "safety" regulations have killed kids before.

[artcat81.livejournal.com]

mom and dad just carefully studied what was required and fought tooth and nail to avoid the rest
I also attended a private school, there were still required things, and Montessori Schools are very big on hygiene, but it was teh public high school that tried to insist I take a vaccine that nearly killed me.
and I understand I represent a small percentage of folks, but vaccines are not all good.


One series of vaccines that realyl scare me are the hepatitis vaccines, they are not safe, there is a high rate of actually INFECTING the person instead of immunizing them and there are a large number of documented ill effects.

I applaud you for questioning the system.

[archangelbeth]

Ironically, though I got into college with a doctor's note of "no vaccines, she's too sensitive"... It was a faked note. My sire was paranoid about all vaccinations, and had our family doctor write a load of BS.

Here's the irony -- I'm angry that he did that, because it screws up life for people who really have a bad reaction to vaccines, and shouldn't have the blighters.

Me? I got my MMR when I was 18 and didn't have the dang note following me around and had no problems.

[selenite.livejournal.com]

I've never had much trouble with vaccinations personally. Usually just being off for a day or two. That's why I avoid flu shots--they give me the same trouble as catching the flu would. But my family doesn't have much in the way of autoimmune troubles. My in-laws, OTOH, are close to collecting the whole set. So we're playing it safe. But we haven't played the "sensitivity" card. We're just using the "conscience" exemption under Texas law.

[archangelbeth]

That's probably a better one. There was a measles outbreak at UTx, in Austin, when I was there. I tried to go get the free vaccination, and they wouldn't let me because of the faked blasted letter. I was grouchy.

If you can manage the "conscience" exemption, that means that when they're older, they can choose whether or not they want to take the risk if there's an actual known "yeah, there's an outbreak" situation.

(As it happened, I did not catch it. Still, I was a tad annoyed.)

[selenite.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah. If the chance of actually catching the disease goes up by 1000x that changes things.

[the-blue-fenix.livejournal.com]

"5. Most of the improvement in childhood health came from clean water and good sewers, not vaccinations."

I've heard that too, from sources without particular anti-vaccine hobby horses. The exception to that rule seems to be polio, which took off _after_ good sanitation did and was increasing every year at the time the vaccine came out. Something like 50,000 US cases the year before the mass produced vaccine, with around a 20% mortality rate. (Quoting vaguely from "A Splendid Solution, from memory.)

[celticdragonfly.livejournal.com]

Polio is actually one of the ones I'd like to give to the kids, at older ages once past most of the brain development, by itself. I'd like to get it for Maggie. I brought it up with my doctor - and he refused to do anything except the full schedule.

Polio is one where I think the risk of the disease is worth the risk of the vaccine. And, IIRC, it's not one of the ones that seems to be more dangerous. (I loaned out my copy of Dr. Cave's book on childhood vaccinations and problems, and it never came back. We may be ordering a new copy soon. I want to reread that section)

[archangelbeth]

I didn't get a polio vaccine, and as an adult... The doctors said I should just avoid going places where I might get it, and request that the minx get a killed-virus one when she got same.

I'm not even sure if they bothered to give her one, knowing that I wasn't vaccinated on it. I think that in the US, it may be considered close to the status of smallpox: not a serious issue.

[selenite.livejournal.com]

Other people looking at the big picture issues:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/index.php?feed=Science&article=UPI-1-20060727-20183000-bc-ageofautism-crn-2.xml
"Few argue against the basic premise of mass vaccination against deadly diseases. The legitimate public-policy question is whether the authorities have gotten the details wrong -- vaccinating too soon against too many illnesses, not all of them life-threatening or likely to afflict children, and undertaking too little independent surveillance of possible unintended consequences."

I don't doubt that vaccinations greatly improve the odds of resisting deadly diseases. My worries focus on the costs of vaccinating against rare diseases and less dangerous ones (chickenpox?!), and the trade-off between risks and benefits. Crippling one in 100,000 kids to keep one in 10,000,000 from contracting a disease isn't worth it.

[archangelbeth]

According to what the doctor told us, and assuming that I recall correctly: The chickenpox vaccine isn't really against chickenpox. It's against chickenpox and a far more dangerous, but more rare, meningitis disease.

Not to mention that chickenpox is implicated in shingles, a disease that the elderly are often afflicted with. If it can ward off both, it's probably better than, well, not.

It's all about risk management

[carbonelle.livejournal.com]

We are very luck to be able to work with our local doctor to space out vaccines--and to eliminate non-critical ones (such as smallpox and wossname - the sexually transmitted/blood-born illness - HepatitisB? Having brainlock just now)

Do you think you could get a local pediatrician to agree to something similar if they know of another pediatric group that does this? I'd be happy to speak to my own doctor about this if you do.

Re: It's all about risk management

[carbonelle.livejournal.com]

That should be "chickenpox" of course. Whoops!